Symphony.

So, Jens, what you are complaining about is not the state of Symphony 2.4 because this hasn't got worse compared to the earlier versions.

Yes and no. What I'm complaining about regarding 2.4 specifically is that really silly new problems slipped through into the stable release that could have easily been avoided. Like throwing a fatal error if someone creates an event called Messages, for example.

And while I think it's a good idea to have essential functionality like publish filtering in the core, maybe it would be a good idea to hold these things back a little longer until everything actually works as expected.

These are indeed all minor issues, but it all adds up.

Not worse compared to the earlier versions simply is not enough to regain people's trust. Every new release is a (currently missed) opportunity for improvement in terms of quality and reliability.

I'd reduce the community sites to the minimum needed, using existing services whereever possible (Github wiki, issue tracker, external discussion services).

Agreed.

@Nils Just to make it clear, I didn't originally intend to rant about all these long standing problems once again. But you always tend to get a little too defensive whenever people raise valid concerns. Looking at all the work you put into Symphony, it's quite understandable. But so is why people are getting frustrated with Symphony and the state of the project.

Not worse compared to the earlier versions simply is not enough to regain people's trust.

The Symphony 2.x branch is not about regaining anybody's trust. It just about keeping this system alive and running at all. Sorry, but I think anything else is just a nice dream at the moment.

But you always tend to get a little too defensive whenever people raise valid concerns. Looking at all the work you put into Symphony, it's quite understandable. But so is why people are getting frustrated with Symphony and the state of the project.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding: I personally think we just have to accept that Symphony 2.x is a mess. This really isn't something new, we have been suffering from this misery for at least three years and everyone around during that time should have noticed. So I don't like to hear comments like "you should do better", I'd like to see offers how to make things better.

We are not in a position where we can set noble goals – we either have to find a way to redefine Symphony as a system and a community or both will vanish sooner than later. And this has nothing to do with one or two bugs.

My opinion, sorry :)

I highly recommend implementing Strobeck Startup Incentive Model for the core developers. It’s a way to share profit based on value contributed. On one of my side projects, we’re successfully working many hours as a team and adding new contributors every week using this expectation management framework.

It’s a way to share profit based on value contributed.

There is no profit to share.

Right, I meant to add .. the community could have a studio arm to it. I'm sure people would like the Symphony community to solve problems and do their projects. I know everyone is already doing their own thing, but it’s a way to generate capital for Symphony.

A project with a budget could be posted on a new section of the Symphony website. Members would opt-in to the project at their rates. SSIM would distribute profit of the project to those involved and Symphony would take a 10% cut for connecting the community with the work.

I just want to say, a bit off-topic, that I love Symphony and can't imagine enjoying my work so much without it. I am really grateful for your time and dedication.

@ellie I second that :)

Seems to me the biggest issue is that the people running the show 2 years ago are all gone (aside from a few regular faces that drop in when summoned). Is there not a way to organise an official handover? It seems no matter what happens next that needs to take place.

It's frustrating to see from my perspective, especially as I don't have the development skills to truly contribute (I'm a designer by trade), even though I do what I can wherever I can. When I joined the community (3?) years ago it felt like things were always happening, stuff was improving, pushing forward, improving, if anything it felt like a startup. I came back very recently after not handling any projects that required Symphony for a good while, and I was more than a little put off by the lack of activity, and the state of 2.4 extensions (I considered using Wordpress for a project, that's how put off I was). But of course there ARE people pushing things forward, @Nils (and co) are doing great things for Symphony, and that needs to be acknowledged; but that should be the norm, these people should be at the forefront of Symphony.

But Symphony is an unrivalled CMS. The only thing that comes close IMO is Expression Engine, which offends me in principle and is impossible to sell to clients.

Perhaps if the proposition was simplified, much of the nuts and bolts stuff moved to Github and the focus regained things could recover. Symphony, although a complex beast, is simple in principle - maybe that simplicity needs to be re-introduced at all levels.

So yea, tl;dr, lets get those keys handed over. What's preventing this from happening?

@ellie Third!

@ellie fourth.

Using it daily and still a great tool. 2.4 changes are fairly big but needed to enable the system to move forward. Github seems to be the home of activity these days and very little gets posted to the forum/site from an article/blog perspective.

@nathan I’m not convinced lack of a »handover« is preventing anything from happening here. If people want to get their hands dirty theres nothing really stopping them. I’m a designer too …

Anyway. Processwire seems to share some of Symphonys principles (and version numbers!). I’d still very much prefer sticking with Symphony.

Still. The development of Nils’ SSM-Successor and Brendos relentless work makes me feel there is some future for Symphony at the moment.

@animaux

Perhaps I wasn't clear… I more mean without the 'keys', as it were, the project will struggle to communicate itself to new and existing users; Symphony is, after all, more than just a codebase (for which all you need is a Github repo).

All I meant with regard to my designer comment was that I'm not able to dive into the code and get fixing stuff as some of the other members of the community can. I certainly do get involved, over the past couple of weeks I've issued pull requests for a good handful of common extensions that were partly-compatible (at best) with 2.4 - because even though it had been released for months barely anything worked properly with it (that's a red flag) - my point is that if stuff isn't getting the attention it needs, people drift away, and without people the project is a dud.

I think for it to be able to 'dig its heels in' it needs ownership, people to drag it forward, people like @Nils who are busting their balls (replace with gender appropriate alternative for our female contributors) to make stuff happen; much of what I would describe as the 'management' of Symphony seem completely absent - and that is already showing in the outdated proposition site and lack of focus with its online presence (which would have been partly resolved with the Factory work that fell into a black-hole).

So I agree with your closing remarks, but I'd rather see a positive, bright future for Symphony, rather than just 'some' future :)

But please understand that the above is a concern, not a complaint. ANY work undertaken by ANY of the community is great, I'm not a customer, I'm a user. The project wouldn't even exist without the people I'm referencing, and they're all charming, friendly, hard working people - but if they're no longer around then they need to pass the torch - else Symphony will be relegated to a footnote on someone's CV.

Hi everyone, I'll just quickly respond to Nathan's concerns.

So yea, tl;dr, lets get those keys handed over. What's preventing this from happening?

There are a few of us that have the 'keys' to Symphony, myself included, others being Nils H, Brendan (obviously) and Stephen Bau; We are mostly still here, I am always in the backend of this site removing spammers, and we are always still active on the repository, as much as time allows.

Those of us I mention have been using Symphony for at least 5 years, and more in some cases, so it is in good hands. At least from a codebase perspective. The issue is really community management and a lack of developer/helper time and it's as simple as that. Three of us consistently work on the core, some more than others, and we do this without much time, as two of us have children and we all have businesses as well.

I really miss the days when we had a really great team of core developers and a community team. Sadly, they all abandoned ship during the 'Symphony Next' conversations and went off to do other things. So, with that in mind, it's hard to maintain a core, and the 'core team' extensions, and all of the abandoned extensions in the Symphonists group; There's just simply too much work to do.

There is no management of Symphony. There hasn't been for a while. There is direction for the codebase; Some of that direction is being piped through to a full rebuild, and that is still in the air (I will blog about it very soon).

but if they're no longer around then they need to pass the torch

If anyone wants to take the reigns of the community management, then please let me know. It's not an easy job; You need to know the product inside and out, be willing to put time in to solve any (rare) disputes on the forum, there need to be blog posts, marketing etc etc. It's a very hard job.

Just as a side note. As we are all acutely aware, the codebase is old. It's been around for years, and uses code in places that was need to work with PHP 4, although Brendan has stripped most of that out. The architecture is still there, as it has been for years.

Now the discussion about a rebuild has died down, everyone's opinions aired, listened to, written down, mulled over (any other phrases), progress can actually start.

From my perspective as a community lead (even though I gave up), too many heated opinions happened, ruffled feathers, and people jumped ship. I even considered it myself! All this settling down time has left us with serious users, who still actually use the software daily. You are the people we are building for, and a lot of time and dedication has already gone into planning the next build, perhaps at the suffering of the current website, for which I can only apologise.

I know it can seem like a dud project, but I can assure you that Symphony as a paradigm, is still worlds apart from other competitors, even though they have their act together on the community front. Symphony is not dead, it's just taken a breather to understand what it is, and where it actually needs to go.

I will keep you posted as to what happens and when, but it is still going, and with 2.4 release, it is going strong.

Thanks for the response @designermonkey.

I understand completely what you're saying - and would never underestimate the work involved.

I know it can seem like a dud project, but I can assure you that Symphony as a paradigm, is still worlds apart from other competitors, even though they have their act together on the community front.

That's exactly why I'm still around. Even if I wanted to jump-ship, I'm not sure where I'd go :)

But I would disagree about Symphony not having the community, it has a great community, it's just so small that when a handful of people leave you really feel it!

Hey all.

Fresh install, used the default workspace. Got this when trying to post a comment: [link removed] Switched to normal Markdown mode and works fine though. Not really an issue for me but always worth tracking.

Also... Some discrepancies between the (git-based) install guide on here and on github. The method for bundle on here didn't work... Glitched out and even after manually adding each one, they didn't unpack properly...or something.

However, started over and the method on Github worked just fine.

Thought I'd chime in :) Liking the small tweaks I've seen already. Better every time!

Not really an issue for me but always worth tracking.

Known issue, already fixed in integration branch. See here for reference.

Also... Some discrepancies between the (git-based) install guide on here and on github. The method for bundle on here didn't work... Glitched out and even after manually adding each one, they didn't unpack properly...or something.

getsymphony.com is not up-to-date. Not enough people/time to maintain it at the moment.

I installed 2.4 and there are no Utilities in Blueprints dropdown menu anymore. Was this intended,(& WHY) or am I missing something?

It was decided that as it was rarely used anymore, and it is better practice to edit utilities in your own choice of editor, we should remove it in this release.

There are extensions that allow file access, so you can still edit the files by installing one of them. The most up to date one is Workspace Manager.

oh, ok, thanks for info, and for nice extension.

You know how we are, we like to keep Symphony as lean as possible :D