Symphony.

Hello,

I sent out a number of Symphony 2.3 demo logins to clients still using Internet Explorer 7 or 8. The idea was to demonstrate how simple and easy to use Symphony is.

But instead these people complain that the drop down menu isn't working (actually most of them don't even realise there is one). I am having a hard time now explaining to them that not Symphony is the problem but their (outdated) browser.

I understand that the new Symphony backend has been geared towards modern browsers. But how about those large organisations with hundreds of PCs running Internet Explorer 7-8. Is there a way to deal with them other than downgrading to Symphony 2.2?

Just wondering how you guys usually handle this...

Hmm usually there's no problem to make their IT departmend install a decently fresh version of IE, even if i'd rather see some other browser.

I have a hard time justifying spending loads of hours and bloating the code of a admin panel targeted to a few users to make it work in ancient browsers.

I guess for most other software and services they buy, they usually have to install something?

Demanding a browser that is less than three years old is not too much... and is a favor towards the user and the whole development community :)

However, if there is a single very big project that relies on ie7 & 8, you can always hack the admin css & js if you find it worth it!

If an alternative browser isn't an option, you could try getting them to install Google Chrome Frame.

That's also a good line of explanation: even a company with the resources of Google found it could no longer natively support old IEs, so your client shouldn't expect you/Symphony to, either.

Usually get them to use a different browser. Even if nazi IT have locked down the machine, they can usually run a standalone browser without needing to install it.

The alternative is that you charge extra for their dated IT requirements, and write an extension that adds conditional stylesheets to the backend to fix layout issues.

We always make sure browser requirements are written into the agreed scope of work at the beginning (both front and backend) to set expectations from the start.

Nick, I don't agree here. In Germany, the situation is like this: The bigger your (potential) clients are, the older their browsers are (and the harder it becomes to have any influence on that). Big companies really lock down machines for years (simply because Microsoft has taught them that every software update ends in a desaster).

Have we really dropped IE 7 and IE 8 completely? If the answer is yes, this is a real shame, and I am not lucky with this.

We always make sure browser requirements are written into the agreed scope of work at the beginning (both front and backend) to set expectations from the start.

I'm with Nick here. Symphony's backend can easily be considered software, and software usually comes with min. system requirements. A capable, standards compliant browser is a system requirement for Symphony, just as having a Windows machine is a requirement for running Microsoft Office (except for the Mac version, of course).

Just wondering how you guys usually handle this...

Make clear from the beginning what the system requirements are to prevent bad surprises like the one you described.

Would the HTML5 shiv extension help here at all? HTML5 Shiv extension on symphonyextensions.com Or are there major hickups outside of what a little js could solve?

Have we really dropped IE 7 and IE 8 completely? If the answer is yes, this is a real shame, and I am not lucky with this.

Yep, there's a GitHub issue about this. Moving with the times. If there's demand then it can be retrofitted with a third party extension, developed at the cost of the client that requires it.

Symphony has never explicitly supported IE to my knowledge. 2.3 is more explicit in we know we're using CSS3/HTML5 bits that definitely won't work.

Internet Explorer 9+ should be supported (that's the lowest version Allen said we should support during Hackathon).

Ah, OK.

If there's demand then it can be retrofitted with a third party extension, developed at the cost of the client that requires it.

I don't need it. Most of my clients are not working in the backend (but in the frontend). But: I am really a bit worried about other Symphony developers trying to "sell" Symphony to companies who still work on Win XP. IE9 doesn''t run on XP. Try and sell a "necessary backend retrofitting" of "some genious system that nobody knows" (Symphony) and you will be kicked out before you started.

Symphony has never explicitly supported IE to my knowledge.

Yep, but now things have become much worse. Now it doesn't work at all, right?

I've made my point clear, so I will shut up now.

IE9 doesn''t run on XP

Most other browsers do.

If software continues to support old crap browsers, then software will still be supporting them in another 10 years, which is unacceptable.

OK, thanks for sharing your experience with this issue.

I usually make it clear to my clients from the very beginning that they will need a modern browser in order to use the latest version of Symphony.

However, as Michael pointed out rightly, the larger the organisation gets the older the browsers they commonly use. (One of my clients, a very large hospital, upgraded from Internet Explorer 6 to 7 only last year.)

It is a shame that Symphony 2.3 does not support IE 7-8 because that makes it difficult to demonstrate the benefits of Symphony (simplicity!) to prospective clients.

From my experience, these clients will often go for an old-fashioned solution like Typo3 or Joomla just because it works in their browsers!

It is a shame that Symphony 2.3 does not support IE 7-8 because that makes it difficult to demonstrate the benefits of Symphony (simplicity!) to prospective clients.

You could demonstrate it on your own machine or on a dedicated demo system that meets Symphony's software requirements. Once they already decided in favour of Symphony, explaining the software requirements and convincing them to update their systems will be a lot easier.

You could even argument that it's a lot cheaper compared to other software that requires new hardware, because the only requirement is a new browser which can be downloaded and installed for free.

It is a shame that Symphony 2.3 does not support IE 7-8

It's not supported out of the box. Doesn't mean you can't modify or extend it to support IE 7-8.

@jensscherbl: You don't have any big clients, do you? You should know that decisions are made by system adminsitrators who have a love/hate relationship with Microsoft's software. Even more, they are really afraid of changing a system once they got it halfway running. These guys will not update anything just because you say that the website's admin interface needs it.

I don't care too much about this, because I don't think that Symphony needs to be famous. To me it just needs to be great (which it is). Regarding administrative tasks, my biggest clients work in the frontend — using Members, deidcated templating layers etc. One of the reasons to switch to frontend editing was the ability to meet any browser requirements to my clients' liking.

(Generally speaking: I think it's too hard to enhance the Symphony backend. It's a big undertaking to re-build the functionality in the frontend, but in the end you can enhance everything much faster. I really hope that one day Symphony will build the admin pages using native events and XSLT. In my eyes this would be a big step for Symphony, because the current technological difference between the website's frontend and the backend is strange, at least.)

But we shouldn't let this discussion become too lengthy. It has been pointed out that completely dropping IE 7 and 8 (i.e. changing the status from "works basically" to "won't work for sure") has been the result of building a new backend design with clear compatibility rules in mind (IE 9 and up only). So this is how it is. It may be less problematic in other countries than it is in Germany.

You don't have any big clients, do you?

Depends on what you consider a "big client". I don't work with large enterprises, but I worked with smaller to mid-sized companies with 100-150 employees before (but not on Symphony related projects, I have to admit). Maybe I was just lucky to work with the right people there, either directly with the administrators, or with people who understood the limitations of old software and were willing to push their it-department into the right direction.

Maybe I was just lucky to work with the right people there, either directly with the administrators, or with people who understood the limitations of old software and were willing to push their it-department into the right direction.

Yes, you were lucky. I envy you! Can we swap clients? :-)

A lot of the UK's governmental, educational and corporate IT departments are also in the dark ages and run old IEs.

I really hope that one day Symphony will build the admin pages using native events and XSLT.

That would be awesome.

It really shouldn't be that hard to make the backend IE 7/8 compatible. The most essential problem is the HTML5 markup that the old Internet Explorers don't understand. Fixing the CSS shouldn't be that complicated either: Symphony just doesn't support the old browsers out of the box (Symphony 2.3 was supposed to clean up things), but adding additional scripts and styles with an extension is easy.

Timo, if you provide the needed styles and scripts there will certainly be someone to help with providing it as an extension.

No, I can't really bother to put so much work into something that will become outdated sooner or later anyway. I guess I will have to continue to work with Symphony 2.2 if a client is reluctant to upgrade their browsers. Or I simply bring my own MacBook to demonstrate Symphony's merits.