Symphony.

Jens, thanks for your comments and trying to answer the raised questions directly in comment #19.

Could others add their answers to the three main questions, please?

Keep in mind: although it's also an important question, I'm not asking how we can make the system better. The docs for example are important but I'm thinking more about the short story, the abstract what Symphony actually is today.

@Jens Good points! I am on your side.

Improving overall code quality (core AND extensions)

I'd go a little further: Use the standards and new developers are your friend.

• Use unit tests (the standard: PHPUnit - this is supported in our IDEs!)
• Don't reinvent the wheel (e.g. Why an own e-mail implementation or db abstration layer? There are plenty of good ones out there! For example: "Swift mailer" and "DoctrineDBAL")
• Use coding standards and check them (PSR-1, PSR-2, PHP_CodeSniffer - this is supported in our IDEs!)
• Use Github and Markdown or reStructuredText for community driven docs

@Nils Are you selling a CMS or an end product (website/internet application)?

Or do you ask your hairdresser what brand has his scissors? ;)

Are you selling a CMS or an end product (website/internet application)?

If the client uses a CMS, I'm of course selling both.

Or do you ask your hairdresser what brand has his scissors? ;)

You know that this comparison doesn't work:
We are the scissor makers, not the hairdresser's clients ;)

Ah, no. We are the hairdressers. :-)

I understand the comparison. My clients never asked me about the basic CMS to be used. They trusted me to choose the the right tools.

@michael-e

Ah, no. We are the hairdressers. :-)

Right!

My clients never asked me about the basic CMS to be used. They trusted me to choose the the right tools.

The clients pay us as an expert and therefore it is our job to choose the right tools/system for your needs.

Hmm, interesting, I am never really challenged for my choice of CMS. Oftentimes it's the other way around: we are the only ones who can say: "yes, we can do that" to pretty much every question the client asks. If they ask why I use Symphony, I mostly just answer: so I can build exactly what you need, not what a developer in insert a place far away from where you live thinks you need. That usually settles it rather quickly.

We are the hairdressers.

I disagree: We are providing our clients with tools they can work with.

The clients pay us as an expert and therefore it is our job to choose the right tools/system for your needs.

My guess is that you have never worked for an university or other public institution.

But I see that most of you don't share my concerns – so let's close the debate and move on.

I would agree with @Nils on the fact that you are actually selling the backend (as well as whatever you develop)

If the Symphony UI is not intuative, and easy to use I'm sure most of us would have complaints from clients that other systems are easier for them to use. They don't just want what they ask for on the front-end but also usable.

Whilst the argument Because we can do all that you want might hold it is not the answer on its own, it is the whole package which should be attractive.

Not all clients are the same I've worked for a University, on an EU related project. The conception was that this particular site had to be build in WordPress, because templates would have been easy to find I presume. However the content was complex, and obtained via 3rd party APIs (json).

I did however have to explain the technical advantages of using Symphony and explain it could be done much quicker then systems such as WordPress, and that it could be easily extendable considering the project might be further-developed at some point in the future.

It seems like there are two distinct things being discussed here:

• Messages and resources to reassure clients who require it
• Substantially increasing awareness of Symphony

I don't think anyone is suggesting the first shouldn't be addressed (even if it hasn't been a concern to some of us) - just that we probably shouldn't expect doing so to help with the second item very much yet.

@David you're right I would consider them as two different aspects.

Obviously either one of them might indirectly lead to the other one, but from a community perspective they would be different efforts.

Keep in mind: although it's also an important question, I'm not asking how we can make the system better.

Sure, but on the other side, it's all connected. You raised concerns about clients not knowing about Symphony, so a solution would be to make it famous among devs and agencies first. The things I highlighted to make the system better are (in my opinion) directly related to making it more attractive for these target groups.

@Nils

My guess is that you have never worked for an university or other public institution.

Exactly the opposite: This is my daily work!

But I know what you mean: these are clients of "special interests". ;)

Back to topic:

Why do clients need it?

Sure, it can not make coffee, but Symphony can sell the coffee. Or in other words: it can realize any kind of website or web application.

Two words: Jam Session!

We are the hairdressers.

Symphony is the hair gel and wax in the hands of the hairdressers :p

so a solution would be to make it famous among devs and agencies first

I think this is important. Create demand and intreague will attract.. but retaining an interest once the intreague is there is a challenge.

I've added a Jam session for this: http://getsymphony.com/discuss/thread/94538/

I only have Nils marked as confirmed (since he had instigated this topic). There are three more spaces left for additional guests. Who's up for it?

I can talk to myself, if needed ;)

"The clients pay us as an expert and therefore it is our job to choose the right tools/system for your needs."

It's not our job to tell clients what they're paying us for ;) Some consider it a service acquisition, some a partnership, some a consultancy.

We find it's a mixed bag. Some clients have invested in a certain CMS, and so it can be a focal point of early discussions, some want our advice on what to go with, some don't even know what a CMS is.

No 2 clients are made alike - and with regards to the hairdressing analogy, I'd personally say that an agency is both the scissor maker AND the hairdresser - all depends on what role you're talking about, we're also the stylist and the wig maker.

I agree though that targeting the agencies/devs/creatives is the key - especially as they're the ones that will appreciate Symphony the most, clients will love it once they use it.

What is Symphony about? / What is Symphony's story today?

Symphony is about simplicity, beauty and respect.

It respects the developer by recognising that their role is similar to that of a conductor, which is to unify elements of a project, keep the tempo, prepare well, and to shape the experience of the audience.

(No, I don't know much about classical music, and yes, I did look up “conducting” at Wikipedia and am just making connections/thinking aloud. :-) )

What is it for? / Why do we need it?

To give us something to build with that saves enormous amounts of time without saddling us with unnecessary assumptions about our content or technical approaches.

To help us structure and store our data, and to do what we want with it.

To bring us admiration and applause from our clients as we take a bow after project completion.

Why should a client use it? / Why do clients need it?

Because it allows their developer to tailor their project to them right from the start.

Because Symphony respects web standards and good practice, and attracts developers who like to do things well, meaning if they should ever need to move to another provider they will have a highly-focused and professional community in which to look.

Why do we need it?

That's why.